Why has Norway yet to become secular?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Dark Elf, Jan 6, 2009.

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  1. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    Yes Xz, I'm looking at you.

    I for one am baffled that Sweden entered the 21st century still dragging on with this ancient relic of the past when nations such as the US had the wall of separation between church and state ratified as far back as in 1791. No matter, the Church of Sweden ceased to function as a state church in the year 2000, for which I am very happy. The ghost of the state church is still very much alive however, especially in the debate over gay marriage. Some ignoramuses don't seem to be able to squeeze into their tiny minds that secularism means that the state *CANNOT* tell the church what to do and that there is no way anyone can force a priest to marry two gay men if that goes against his or her faith. I'm personally of the opinion (so is large parts of the church) that we should strip all religious organizations of their legal right to marry, make marriage a purely legal matter and let those who want to have a ceremony, religious or otherwise, have that as an option. Then there would be no problem at all for the church to tell gays to fuck off if they so desire, and the issue of gay marriage could once and for all be an internal matter for the church.
     
  2. Xz

    Xz Monkey Admin Staff Member

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    If we can force the church to marry gay people, we can make it go away all together. Muahahahahahahahahahahahahah.
     
  3. Archmage Orintil

    Archmage Orintil New Member

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    I'm of the opinion that the state church, and state religion itself, should be illegal. What a person does in their own home, to their own body (so long as it doesn't interfere with everyone else doing the same) is noone elses business. If their religion has a problem with it, then well, change their religion. Religion is a religion because it has dogma/rules of belief. If your lifesyle doesn't fit that dogma, then it's not your religion. Don't change the religion to fit your belief, simply believe in something else.
     
  4. Xiao_Caity

    Xiao_Caity New Member

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    This is the first (and likely only) time I have ever said this...

    I agree with Orintil.
     
  5. Vorak

    Vorak Administrator Staff Member

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    I really do hate it when people try to make religions change to suit themselves. If you don't agree with the rules then you are obviously in the wrong religion.

    This is coming from someone who has reclassified themselves as 'irreligious' rather than an atheist because whilst I believe in most of what atheists rant on about the Big Bang sounds stupid no matter how you explain it.

    And yes I am aware that Atheism isn't really a religion but all its followers act like it is.
     
  6. Grakelin

    Grakelin New Member

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    Whether or not Atheism is a religion is a semantic debate that has spoiled countless arguments over history.
     
  7. wobbler

    wobbler Well-Known Member

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    Kinda stupid too, much like the discussion whether God exists or not.
     
  8. Xz

    Xz Monkey Admin Staff Member

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  9. Ramidel

    Ramidel New Member

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    Mmm. The problem is that keeping the state out of the church, in a democracy, allows the church to meddle in the state. See: America. Hell, if not for the Supreme Court, abortion and homosexual acts would still be illegal by law in a large portion of the country, because church groups can organize political movements based on their version of God Said So.

    It's automatic excommunication for a Catholic politician to say "the government should mind its own business, even if I'm personally opposed" on abortion, for instance. Or for a Catholic voter to vote for anyone who votes that way. No, not making this up. That's a consequence of "the state does not meddle in the church" that I'm not entirely comfortable with: Norway can mandate that their state church stay out of politics, America really can't do that.
     
  10. Quethim

    Quethim New Member

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    Atheism is the belief that there is no God. No where in that does it mention that an atheist has to believe in the big bang theory. If you do not believe there is a God, you are atheist. If you are uncertain, you are agnostic. If you believe we are controlled by the overlords above, you play way too many videogames.
     
  11. papa_dog_1999

    papa_dog_1999 Well-Known Member

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    ..and if you believe we're alien spirits trapped in human bodies thanks to evil Xenu, you're a scientologist.
     
  12. Xz

    Xz Monkey Admin Staff Member

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    No, you have to specifically believe that there is no god. Not believing there is one isn't enough.
     
  13. Quethim

    Quethim New Member

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    "–noun
    a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings."

    That's from dictionary.com...

    And like what Grakelin says, it is a pointless debate. People who disbelieve the idea of a God existing and wishing to not place themselves into the category of an atheist are arrogant and hate the idea that they are being categorized. It does not matter what you wish to believe, everyone is part of a set of belief and is categorized. And if you do not wish to be categorized, you are therefore categorized with other individuals who wish to not be categorized. ;)
     
  14. Xz

    Xz Monkey Admin Staff Member

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    And it doesn't contradict me.
     
  15. Quethim

    Quethim New Member

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    Not believing in something, and believing there to not be something is the same thing :p
     
  16. Archmage Orintil

    Archmage Orintil New Member

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    No it isn't.
     
  17. Jazintha Piper

    Jazintha Piper Member

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    Does anyone remember that the Church of England was created so that King Henry VIII didn't have to chop off any more of his wives' heads?

    And just to throw a spanner in the works.... has anyone heard about this story about the atheist in the army?
     
  18. Vorak

    Vorak Administrator Staff Member

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    The Church of England allowed him to divorce his first wife, the executions came later.
     
  19. Jazintha Piper

    Jazintha Piper Member

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  20. Quethim

    Quethim New Member

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    "I don't believe in god."

    "I believe there to be no god."

    You can argue it all you want, but it still has the same meaning...it all relies on the existence of a supreme being to be null. :p Sure, there being no "not" in front of god could signify that in all reality a god exists and the individual speaking such is giving claim to that possibility, but I can almost guarantee that anyone stating that they don't believe in god is claim of them wishing to state that they believe there to be no god. You can argue semantics all you want, but it does not change the meaning of a phrase. ;) Anyway, I'm done with this pointless arguement!
     
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