Kerghans last thoughts

Discussion in 'Arcanum Discussion' started by Muro, Apr 11, 2009.

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  1. Wolfsbane

    Wolfsbane Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry that I won't be able to participate in this discussion. My time online is very limited, so I won't be able to really debate this with you.

    Another time, perhaps.
     
  2. GarmGarf

    GarmGarf New Member

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    I'm on Kerghan's side (which is obvious to anyone who witnessed my banning), but one thing I didn't know was that resting souls get re-used when individuals get conceived. Before I knew this fact I acknowledged Kerghan's selflessness, but now I realize that maybe he did have a hint of selfishness - maybe his whole plan was to just prevent his own consciousness from ever being (once again) recycled into the cycle of life; the pain; the misery.

    Some say that Kerghan could have just killed himself and presto, no more suffering for him, but if it is true that souls get recycled, then no, he could be recycled in the future (and possibly into one of the "life is worth it" believing individuals guaranteeing him a world of hurt).

    Yes everybody benefits from Kerghan's plan, but he benefits too, and possibly all he cares about is number one (although alternatively he could have also cared about everyone else as well).
     
  3. Muro

    Muro Well-Known Member

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    Kerghan surely is aware of the fact, that his soul would be free of life for eternity only if he would fulfill his plan. He does value afterlife above all and wants to rest himself. He's actions indeed may be partly guided by his own interest. Therefore I always thought that the Living One's argument "So why won't you just die and leave Arcanum alone?" could meet Kerghan's response saying "And risk my own soul to get ripper from peace sooner or later? No chance in hell!", even if he wouldn't say it out loud, even if he wasn't allowing himself to be aware of it. Nothing wrong about that, though. When everyone benifit from one's actions, why can't he do so as well. He would deserve it after all. A gratuitous redimeer is a nice concept but lets be honest, nothing amplifies the motivation like own own profit.

    Still I don't think that his own benifit is the main thing that fuels his plan. Why? Because of what he says. He knew that the living One is powerful, but he didn't really consider him as someone more powerful than himself, so he didn't have to pretend to be a good guy just to convince him and have him on his side. Why would he care. He also isn't doing it to feel better about himself - he already is above good and evil, so he doesn't have any conscience to calm. If all that he cared for was his own soul, he would say it clearly, because why not. He is surely happy about freeing his own soul, but I think it is rather a additional benifit for him rather than the main cause behind his actions.
     
  4. DarkFool

    DarkFool Nemesis of the Ancients

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    I commend you all on your massive philosophizing on this topic, but could I convince you lads to include a tl;dr: section at the bottom of each post? :p
     
  5. GarmGarf

    GarmGarf New Member

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    The "tl;dr" version is that if you apply this philosophy to IRL in the general discussion forum while MathBoy is an admin, then you will be banned.


    Regardless of that, all the people who wish to continue living don't deserve to because: no universal truth states that they deserve to; and because they could potentially bear children who will continue the cycle of misery.

    Furthermore, individuals who still wish to live are rather like toddlers who wish to touch a hot stove or children being bullied who don't want to tell the teacher. They are ignorant individuals who people (who want the best for them) still do against what they wish because of their naiveté.


    Tl; dr: individuals don't deserve life.
     
  6. Muro

    Muro Well-Known Member

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    What the...? And the reason? Total crap is welcome to be discussed in GD, but philosophy is a big no-no?
     
  7. Xiao_Caity

    Xiao_Caity New Member

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    Philosophy gives me headaches. I still maintain that, regardless of good or evil intentions, Kerghan has no right to slaughter the entirety of all living things on Arcanum. His belief that he does have that right, nay, that obligation, merely proves that he is too far gone to be helped.
     
  8. Muro

    Muro Well-Known Member

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    On a general note, if we don't want to be considered ignorant, we can't say someone's wrong only bacause we don't understand him or his idea seems so very different from what we are used to. That's the greatest reason for actually trying to get into his skull and look on the matter from his own eyes. And then we can realise how right or wrong he was.
     
  9. Zanza

    Zanza Well-Known Member

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    So we should kill them all and let God sort them out? right then, Xiao you take the left, Muro you go right, Garm I want you to take the center. Now for the fun part, picking up the ones they miss.
     
  10. Muro

    Muro Well-Known Member

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    Well now, that's a sensitive topic. But in Arcanum terms, everyone will get the same afterlife reward no matter who they were and what they did in their lives. The gods don't seem to care about it, not one bit.
     
  11. Zanza

    Zanza Well-Known Member

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    Hmm Arcanum Gods, that gives me an idea for a new would You?
     
  12. Skyfish

    Skyfish New Member

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    What i'm about to write is a little off-topic, but i think you'll appreciate it.

    Assuming that Kerghan's experiences and inferences are true, your statement about the gods of Arcanum is entirely correct. That got me thinking about the gods. What role do they play? Bless and curse, but to what end? None. So...

    ... the PC can choose to return from the Void as a 'god' -- that is, as a kind of higher power. We've heard only shreds of information about the Void, theories of another world torn asunder in some cataclysmic struggle.

    Suppose Arcanum's 'old gods' are the fading vestiges of similar higher powers. Perhaps they were from another world -- from that which would become the Void -- and the destruction stranded them in the strange land of ancient Arcanum. Travelers!

    Or suppose they, like the PC, were once mortal, transformed by the power of life and death flowing strongly through the Void. Arcanum -- a world which makes its own gods!

    The idea has a faint hint of the real-world LDS church. I wonder if someone on Troika's staff felt inspired?
     
  13. GarmGarf

    GarmGarf New Member

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    I once shared my ideals and philosophies with the community. I was believed to be trolling so I was banned.

    Well rights are sourced by power. All these "rights" we are aware of day to day are an agreement formed by those with power, and people's favour is the source of power in this day and age.

    No universal truth states that that murder is wrong, in fact it is ok in a war zone where power is experienced in a more corporeal form.

    If I murder someone, and if I am caught, individuals with power over me will put me in jail using their power because I didn't comply with the agreement of law - the agreement being: "follow these rules or else you will be punished". I am not suggesting that there is any single individual who set up these laws, but rather these laws are here because they are the people's wish (caused by various influences).

    But wait, Kerghan does have the power to kill everyone (if the player doesn't stop him). Whether he has the "right" to is his decision because there is no universal truth stating what actions are "right" and which are "wrong". Actions are only "right" or "wrong" with accordance to specific morality systems, and one should only consider any of such systems if either one agrees with them or if the power of one has power over the individual.
     
  14. Zanza

    Zanza Well-Known Member

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    I still think in the end, Kerghan should stop
    using the dwarves
    as a substitute for attention his parents never gave him. Simple as that.
     
  15. Muro

    Muro Well-Known Member

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    I always thought that the god dialogue options with Kerghan and the god endings were triggered by Velorien's blessing, but I recently realised that they don't seem to have any requirements. So you basically get god dialogue options/endings just by going to the Void, but then again it is a matter of interpretation. Does "god" in those words mean a divine being or a powerful person, who will rule over all/decide upon everyone's faith. Kerghan says something about "Very well. Death will decide which god will return to Arcanum", but which I think he meant (at least when speaking about himself) "Very well. Death will decide who will decide upon the faith of Arcanum". Than again, who knows what option was the intended one (if any).

    As for the gods in Arcanum. You want my possible explaination? Well, one of many, that is. Ispired by Terry Pratchett's "Colour of magic". Arcanum is just a boardgame of the gods and the checkers are made from "drops" of the endless sea of great mirrored glass. Velorien is the most powerful, since he created it all, but doesn't have any morals, good or evil. He just enjoyed creating it and didn't care what happened after that, yet if someone will take the effort to worship him, he rewards him with the greatest blessing, simply because it flatters him.
    The higher gods have manufactured some morals (or rules of good and evil). So Halcyon likes when living ones play fair and work for the construction of Arcanum, Moorindal like them destroying the whole place and introducing chaos. Kai'tan is aware about morals, but doesn't care about them, she just like screwing with both Halcyon and Moorindal and make them fight with each other.
    While the higher gods are the big players, the lesser gods are small players. They have lesser power and pretty much try to survive in the whole situation, sticking to the proffesion and/or race which they patronage. While the greater gods play with whole Arcanum, lesser ones play with smaller parts of Arcanum within the big game.
    The whole board game is just a thousands of years long RTS. When Bolo gets unlucky, Moorindal takes the opportunity and sends Gorgoth on one of the halfling villages, when Shakar hes the upper hand, he gives birth to the Bane of Kree, if everyone are pretty stable and only Alberich doesn't seem to be quite well at the moment, they implement Lorek among his people, but and so on.
    Somewhere in all of this, Kerghan gets aware of the situation and wants to flip the board and put an end to the game of the gods.

    GarmGarf, I pretty much agree with your last post, at least on one hand. We can come to a conclusion, that good and evil do not exist, but we can be guided with what serves the overall stability day-to-day existance. This way not only the nature-implemented conscience doesn't burden us, but we don't have to worry to be punished with already existing (while not always objective and right) laws.

    Well Zanza, there's no way to become a visionary or a great leader without having lots of people acusing you of having several types of inferiority complexes.
     
  16. DarkFool

    DarkFool Nemesis of the Ancients

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    It's the manner in which you write things. I think that, and/or your outlook on life is considered to be extremely naive/idiotic by a good portion of the membership/world, and, therefore, you were banned. :) I can't well recall your words, but I think that's probably rather accurate.


    Muro, your idea is an interesting one... and one I can actually see as being quite plausible. The question I have is, why would Kerghan want to stop the Gods from playing there game, knowing it meant everyone's death? Is there game such a great fallacy that they should be destroyed for it?
     
  17. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    Since the game of the gods pulls souls into the material world where they go through a never ending cycle of pain, Kerghan would find it very necessary to stop the game from being played once and for all. After all, his motivation is for souls to find ultimate peace in death; this necessitates the destruction of life. He doesn't particularly care why the gods are playing their game. "... the effect of WHAT? I do not know, neither do I care."
     
  18. GarmGarf

    GarmGarf New Member

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    Well the problem there was the community's lack of open-mindedness. There are too blinded by the moral restraints implemented into them to even consider my proposals.

    For example, Xiao_Caity keeps on stating: "Nobody has the right to decide who lives and who dies, especially not on the scale of an entire world." She doesn't form an argument to justify that statement; that quote alone is her argument, and she derives justifications from that. I don't mean to pick on her, as the great majority of the community/world are like this.

    But the thing is that people don't have to justify things when they all agree on them. For example, at a monotheist gathering, members of different religions could debate which monotheist religion is correct, if any, but they wont have to, and wont, debate whether God exists or not because they all agree on that.

    So this is why many people are all for "the sacredness of life". Not because they are correct, but because they have agreed on it, and together they have more power than anyone who disagrees.
     
  19. Muro

    Muro Well-Known Member

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    As for now it seems that you will have at least one member sharing your view, Garf.
     
  20. Viktor Modante

    Viktor Modante New Member

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