More USA controversy

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sheriff Fatman, Sep 18, 2002.

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  1. Sheriff Fatman

    Sheriff Fatman Active Member

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    As if we hadn't had enough, I'm going to warily place another log on the embers.

    The South African guy I work with and used to live with has just had his visa application refused for his holiday in the USA.

    Here are the bald facts:
    • The UK have granted him a 4 yr visa to work here as long as he remains in full employment, which he has for the last 3 years.
    • He wanted a 3 week holiday in the USA and (wrongly as it turned out) assumed there would be no objections, so he spent £800 on flights before receiving his visa
    • He applied for a holiday visa and got turned down
    • The stock letter sent to him as a rejection cites a 1998 act of law whereby all people applying for holiday visas (unless from specially excempted countries) are assumed to be illegal immigrants unless they can give concrete proof to the contrary.
    • From now on, every other visa application he makes, for any country, must include the declararion that he has had a visa application rejected.

    He only found out this morning and is naturally upset. I was frankly stunned. Given other events at the moment, it seems to me this is the sought of bureaucratic thing that is not directly controlled by Usians and may or may not reflect the majority attitudes, but will certainly affect the perception of US attitudes to foreign countries.

    BTW, I am not deliberately trying to provoke flaming, but if you all think I am being overly controvertial (the timing of this is pure happenstance, but my posting of it wasn't, of course), I'll refrain from related topics for a while.
     
  2. Dragoon

    Dragoon New Member

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    Every single year reports on Poles being turned back from other countries pop up in newspapers. Apparently it's hardest for us to enter England, US and Israel. People are often taken for quesitoning by customs officer and they await their questioning in small cells with tens of other people. Of course no one bothers to maken sure that a "reject" actually has a way of getting back to Poland. People are accused of being thieves, hookers and whatnot for no apparent reason. Even some 13 or 14 year old girl was labeled hooker when she tried to enter England. It doesn't help if you have cash literally falloing out of your wallet, golden credit cards and confirmed reservation at the most expensive hotel in a given city. Or even invitation from a family living in a given region.


    Of ocurse some Polish citizens who go abrad are also to blame as they are actually thieves and spoil foreigners' opinion of other Poles. Nevertheless, to get back to original topic, it seems that a number of customs officers are just lousy racist motherfuckers. And as for your friend Sheriff, he should still consider himself lucky that he was not treated like a piece of shit - which does happen at boarders.
     
  3. Sheriff Fatman

    Sheriff Fatman Active Member

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    I kind of feel like he WAS treated like a piece of shit, by proxy. I'd hate to think of the UK doing this too, but would not rule it out. The amount of racists or people scared of immigrants I meet on a day to day basis is shocking.
     
  4. Ct0fDiscord

    Ct0fDiscord New Member

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  5. Dragoon

    Dragoon New Member

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    Sure he could've felt so but if you take into account things I mentioned he wasn't verbally abused or put in a small crouded cell to await questioning and then put there again to await some means of transport heading for his home. All that with no real possibility to complain/appeal. As for such things happening in England, US and Israel with regard to Polish citizens I read most reports on England (esp.Dover iirc) unfortunately.

    Still I would never expect a British citizen to be treated so in US.
     
  6. Dennis Moore

    Dennis Moore New Member

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    Not only that but most Usians don’t have much contact with it. Like you don’t have with British bureaucracy in these matters.
    I don’t think racism is the problem, but foreign-phobia (whatever the real word is). But I do think that fear may become mixed up with racism.

    Unemployment is on the rise; many people have ‘real’ reasons in their lives to justify these feelings. For many, immigrants offer a good escape goat for their problems.
     
  7. Sheriff Fatman

    Sheriff Fatman Active Member

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    No, I don't think that would happen either, although the immigration officials in the USA always scare me with their apparent hostility.

    The stuff going on at Dover at the moment is dubious. We have become the number one destination (statistically) for assylum seekers, or people pretending to be assylum seekers. I believe it has to do with our laws being different from everyone elses (something about putting people in housing while their hearing is pending, rather than camps).

    They have toughened up at the tunnel entrance, because of people walking through the tunnel form the French camp of asylum seekers, but I didn't realise they had just started treating everyone horribly.

    I've always been a bit against the general tendency for immigration officials to treat people with scorn and suspicion. Maybe they feel it is necessary, but I'm not in favour of assuming guilt rather than innnocence.
     
  8. CharlesBHoff

    CharlesBHoff New Member

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    What of it is the poor level of traiming given INS ans Custom people in America with harsy any judual oversight which over police angency are subgect too. It seem like the Bush want to end judual oversight of all law enforcement in the USA. I hope that you are not in law enforcement in England.
     
  9. bryant1380

    bryant1380 New Member

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    No, I think bleh on beauracratic affairs of this sort would be more in line. Like Dragoon said, same thing happens to Poles in UK and other countries.

    However, your SA friend did, IMO, get shitted on, S_F. This kinda stuff is stupid. Surely there is something he can work out? Maybe not.......
     
  10. Sheriff Fatman

    Sheriff Fatman Active Member

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    Thanks, retard. He might appeal, but he'll not get his £800 back. He shouldn't have booked the tickets before having the visa, I suppose, but who'd have thought someone would say "No, you can't have a holiday in our country"?

    It's one thing to get poor treatment if you just turn up in someone's country without a visa, but it is something else to be told you'll not be allowed a visa, even if you go through all the proper channels and ask nicely.
     
  11. Vlad the Imposter

    Vlad the Imposter New Member

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    That is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. How can they be considered "illegal aliens" if they are applying for a visa? He can prove that he has a valid visa to the UK, so he is not an alien there. He isn't in the US yet, so he isn't an alien there. So where is he an illegal alien at?

    It could just be some ignorant ass at the immigration office not realizing that "holiday" means "vacation" here in the US. He probably said to himself, "Holiday? There's no holiday when he wants to come here. DENIED!"
     
  12. Luchaire

    Luchaire New Member

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    Well... I think it's a pretty crappy deal, too. In all fairness, I went and read the actual law that supposedly was applied to the situation, and I have to say......

    It made no fucking sense. I would have had just as much luck reading Greek. I guess it's a good thing I didn't pursue a law degree...

    So, I cannot offer any rationalization. I'm sorry for your friend - undoubtedly it's a hard knock for him. I'll drink a cold one on his behalf...
     
  13. Milo

    Milo New Member

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    I'm confused by this also. Are they (US Customs) saying that they assume he's an illegal immigrant in England? He's not, he has a work visa. I don't get it.

    There's got to be a way to appeal this. From the way Fatman says it, the fact that he got rejected will hurt his chances for getting another visa anywhere in the world. Since there's such a stigma attached to getting rejected, there's got to be a review process or something, right?
     
  14. DarkUnderlord

    DarkUnderlord Administrator Staff Member

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    Just admit it Sheriff, you're friend is an illegal immigrant. He's been lying to you all these years. He really got into England by hiding in the back of a truck on a cargo ship. You should feel insulted that he lied to you¹.



    ¹ :D
     
  15. Hel Khat

    Hel Khat New Member

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    Personally I think the whole situation suck but this part of the story is the WORST of it. How can he travel now with that declaration over his head? How is this going to affect his quality of life now? I feel very bad for him. How long will this have to hang over his head? Is there any other way around this for him? :-?
     
  16. Sheriff Fatman

    Sheriff Fatman Active Member

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    It's there forever, as far as I know. People who have travelled to a country where you need a visa may remember the little question on some form or other that says something like "Have you ever had a visa application refused?"

    Milo and Vlad he is not assumed to be an illegal immigrant in the UK by the USA. He is assumed to want a holiday visa so he can get into the US then become an illegal immigrant.

    I'd be interested to know how other countries are set up. I wouldn't be surprised to find Africans and Eastern Europeans get a raw deal from almost everyone.
     
  17. DarkUnderlord

    DarkUnderlord Administrator Staff Member

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    Over here, we just lock 'em (tourists) up and let them rot in the outback for a few years. Then we ship 'em back home. That's why people love the Australian outback and our "outback holidays". ;)

    There was a great backberner episode on it once.
     
  18. CharlesBHoff

    CharlesBHoff New Member

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    Did you know that illegality by international law.
     
  19. Dragoon

    Dragoon New Member

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    I think that the whole customs officers being hostile bastards thing is also due to the fact that their work is not often highly regarded (and it is important). Since they can’t do shit to their own citizens (we have to admit there are people who’ll just curse whoever they wish because they had to wait bloody 5 minutes in line) all the worst that’s in customs officers falls upon foreigners. Imagine: you spent shitloads of cash to get through Atlantic, and now it’s only their will between you and US. And you can’t do shit about how they treat you. Appeal? Don’t make me laugh. You can only appeal to a higher rank… customs officer. “Sooo, you’re saying that my colleague is stupid, you dirty foreigner, right? Get the fuck back to where ya came from.� No real appeal option. Plus, at least Poles, are often offered a deal in US. You can’t come in, but if you’re quiet we won’t put an ugly stamp in your passport. Rejection stats are lower and people take it to avoid being stigmatized with the “dirty foreigner tried to illegally immigrate� stamp.
     
  20. Qilikatal

    Qilikatal New Member

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    It depends on how the law is read or tolked (dont know the real word). What you perhaps are doing is that you read look at the case and think with your heart rather than your brain (as my lawteacher says). Though it can also be some horibole bad mistake. What i don't see is that you will have to prove that you are not an unligal imigrant, thought it was not guilty until proven otherwise, not the other way aorund
     
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