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 PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:53 pm Post subject: 
 
Water Merchant
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Seven is hardly a record for many a forum. Although, I suppose I can endeavor to do better. I suppose if I were to engage Muro in an elongated debate...why...I might even reach twenty.


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 PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:09 pm Post subject: 
 
Apprentice
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RunAwayScientist wrote:
Charonte wrote:
ZippoLag, building a 3D engine is a really really really bad idea ...



Yup. Pretty much. Took the gaming industry years to screw around with gaming engines to get to the point they are at now. I'd recommend buying an indie engine and modding it up to your specs, as an alternative. But uhhh, if you want the experience, as you stated, then go for it I suppose. But what Charonte said is pretty much accurate. It's no easy journey.

Props to you if you keep at it, however.


Yup, the popular opinion is that making an engine would take just too much time, but just how much is "too much" depends on one's priorities ;)
There are some things I want to try out and the only way to learn those things will be to really do this, or so I feel.

RunAwayScientist wrote:
ZippoLag wrote:
I'm drawing the baselines for a pen&paper RPG


But we already have a superior medium...why go backwards when you can spend your efforts on working out things for the computer game version? Granted, Pen and Paper have their appeal in their own way....but in your particular case, perhaps you should spend the effort working out more concrete plans for your PC version?


I dare say, computer based role playing is by no means superior to pen & paper. Sitting 'round a table with a bunch of friends -or strangers- and use your imagination to dwell in a fantasy world, regardless of texture resolutions and frame rates is a unique experience wich PC games fail to comprehend in most cases. And may I add, one of the things I intend to develop some day, is an MMORPG in wich the main activity, purpose, mean and goal of every quest isn't killing a bunch of creeps to gain experience and loot.

Charonte wrote:
Honestly, if you want my advice start off developing a 2D/isometric engine instead. They're more than complex enough for a single developer and the vast majority of the math applies to 3D too.

Read an article not too long ago about why you should make games, and not engines. Basically if you make *just* an engine you will spend forever adding useless features that have no practical use, trying perfect something that in the real world functions fine.

So, if you want to make an engine build a game and make an engine to fit. Doesn't have to be much, just a simple concept, so long as it's not so abstract that you can't actually focus on the game and end up just making a crap engine with an example.

After you've done one game, come up with a new concept and adapt your engine to fit that. You'll end up with something that fits a broader application and yet you're still learning something about game development too. It's never something I've been able to do but it's still the best route, I think.

As for considering modding in my own project (think this has been bought up before), yep, it should be relatively simple. You will need to have a basic knowledge of scripting (lua) and initially you will need to create maps by hand (I will provide a template lua script to facilitate this however), but apart from that it should be a cakewalk. Everything is/will be documented so nothing should be overly obscure.

Thanks, but no thanks, I've already dwelled into the dark paths of isometric engines and given the fact I hated the results I got and since most PCs still functioning today have enough proccessing power to smoothly run some sort of complete 3d engine I feel that attempting to make an isometric engine -or using one for making a game- would end up in me giving up what's left of my humanity for the sake of keeping my mind "sane". I'm probably going to use lua for scripting, though.

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BTW, yeah, I know C, C++, C#, Java, HTML, PHP and SMALLTALK as well, but I've come to understand that the more I add to my sigs the less fun they become.


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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:04 am Post subject: 
 
Water Merchant
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ZippoLag wrote:
.... and goal of every quest isn't killing a bunch of creeps to gain experience and loot....



What?! A game that doesn't involve killing, murdering, and/or other things related to violence?! My God man....what have you done?! You'll revolutionize the industry!



Sounds like a plan Zippo. I wish you the best of luck in such an endeavor.


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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:19 am Post subject: 
 
Apprentice
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RunAwayScientist wrote:
ZippoLag wrote:
.... and goal of every quest isn't killing a bunch of creeps to gain experience and loot....



What?! A game that doesn't involve killing, murdering, and/or other things related to violence?! My God man....what have you done?! You'll revolutionize the industry!



Sounds like a plan Zippo. I wish you the best of luck in such an endeavor.


I thank you indeed, I basically want to translate pen&paper role playing to computer role playing, it shall be a titanic task with less than very low chances of success, but hell, I want to try :)

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Spanish is my first language, English is my second, Pascal is my third, Assembly is my fourth and Japanese my fifth, so if my ramblings seem incomprehensible at some point I've just probably mixed them all up toghether.
BTW, yeah, I know C, C++, C#, Java, HTML, PHP and SMALLTALK as well, but I've come to understand that the more I add to my sigs the less fun they become.


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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:33 am Post subject: 
 
Water Merchant
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ZippoLag: You seems to be experienced, so why have you decided to write a (another) brand new engine when you could use some already working one? Do you know a project EvilTemple? It's TOEE engine restoration project, and it has a very advanced engine already, it's also open-source, so you might use it as base for the new Arcanum engine. Don't do same mistake as we/I did. Make a game, not engine, before your enthusiasm fade away.

Just giving a advice, it's your decision, but you might be the one who actually might be successful.

Have a nice day.

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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:16 am Post subject: 
 
Apprentice
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Crypton wrote:
ZippoLag: You seems to be experienced, so why have you decided to write a (another) brand new engine when you could use some already working one? Do you know a project EvilTemple? It's TOEE engine restoration project, and it has a very advanced engine already, it's also open-source, so you might use it as base for the new Arcanum engine. Don't do same mistake as we/I did. Make a game, not engine, before your enthusiasm fade away.

Just giving a advice, it's your decision, but you might be the one who actually might be successful.

Have a nice day.


Thanks, I appreciate all the advice, I rally do, so since I've stated a couple of times already that the major reason for me wanting to put myself though this seemingly painful experience: I love systems. I love them so much I'm studying information systems engineering, but it is a shame that the only systems we get a chance to develop in course are boring administrative ones, sure they put food on the table but are as boring, uninteresting and easy to make that they almost killed my passion for engineering. But thankfully things got interesting when I dwelled into the realms of OS design, and the algorithms and workarounds people had to make get computers to what they are today, and then I remembered, my long lost dream from my days of innocence: I wanted to make a living out of making games, and then I remembered all of my past failures, and the biggest reasons behind them: my own ignorance and the uglyness of the engines I had at hand to experiment with, a week later I had made an ASCII Pacman in C and my faith in the world was restored. So after some thinking I came to realize that, making a whole -or at least the functional barebones- of a 3D networking game engine would be a task that I would definately complete one day.

And besides, yes, it may be pointless to re-invent the wheel, but I might just invent the gear in the process ;)

_________________
Spanish is my first language, English is my second, Pascal is my third, Assembly is my fourth and Japanese my fifth, so if my ramblings seem incomprehensible at some point I've just probably mixed them all up toghether.
BTW, yeah, I know C, C++, C#, Java, HTML, PHP and SMALLTALK as well, but I've come to understand that the more I add to my sigs the less fun they become.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:50 pm Post subject: 
 
Nemesis of the Ancients
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Joined: Jan 28, 2005
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Charonte wrote:
Dark Fool, I'm slightly insulted that you forgot my own Arcanum project (which is still being worked on, I swear!). I was nearly ready to share the secrets of my porn multiverse with you but now I guess you have to wait...

I thought I recalled your saying that it was cancelled or shelved indefinitely. My apologies.

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Dark Elf wrote:
Racist, sexist, pessimist, chauvinist, misogynist... heck, I'm just ist.

Jungle Japes wrote:
And I say you sound like an idiot, not because you disagree, but because your arguments are stupid.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:16 am Post subject: 
 
Never in doubt
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You should really try to implement the game logic first, and only THEN think about adding any kind of 2D, isometric or 3D interface or other shining features. Collect ideas about the mechanics of the game you planned and try to realize them in code. Making a 2D interface and some kind of editor is easier once you have a solid, consistent system. Avoid 3D, it introduces a lot of problems and expenses, 2D and especially isometric is enough pain in the ass already. Have a game in mind (perhaps some adventure module from pen & paper?) to implement with your engine, try to adjust it accordingly.
Any time you have some nice idea, do a reality check. You are a single developer with limited time and budget. Aim low, make something simple but robust, once you achieved that, try to build on it, improve it.
Oh yes, and kiss your free time goodbye.

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ONE DAY, IGNUS WILL KILL YOU ALL!


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 PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:38 am Post subject: 
 
Apprentice
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Frigo wrote:
You should really try to implement the game logic first, and only THEN think about adding any kind of 2D, isometric or 3D interface or other shining features. Collect ideas about the mechanics of the game you planned and try to realize them in code. Making a 2D interface and some kind of editor is easier once you have a solid, consistent system. Avoid 3D, it introduces a lot of problems and expenses, 2D and especially isometric is enough pain in the ass already. Have a game in mind (perhaps some adventure module from pen & paper?) to implement with your engine, try to adjust it accordingly.
Any time you have some nice idea, do a reality check. You are a single developer with limited time and budget. Aim low, make something simple but robust, once you achieved that, try to build on it, improve it.
Oh yes, and kiss your free time goodbye.


ABSOLUTELY YES!
I've seen countless failed attempts at making all sorts of systems, each doomed by the same flaw: lack of planning. The concept that I've thought of -as long as I manage to implement it correctly- would be modularized enough that you could actually swap the graphic prossesing part of the engine and replace it for something completely different, as long as it supports the same programmatical interface. The first version of the "graphical engine" will probably end up being a text adventure madlib style, if th mechanics are working well enough, I think I'll skip right into a 3D graphic module. A Dwarf Fortress style engine is completely out of the cuestion -tho it could be "fun" to do-, in case you were wondering :P

And, "spare time" you say? What is that? Do you eat it? '^^
No, I've not had true free time in ages, I'm always poking my nose in something, either addicted to a game or messing with stuff, even on vacations, I've long forgotten the pleasure of being able to "do nothing".

_________________
Spanish is my first language, English is my second, Pascal is my third, Assembly is my fourth and Japanese my fifth, so if my ramblings seem incomprehensible at some point I've just probably mixed them all up toghether.
BTW, yeah, I know C, C++, C#, Java, HTML, PHP and SMALLTALK as well, but I've come to understand that the more I add to my sigs the less fun they become.


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 PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:34 am Post subject: 
 
10th level Paladin
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It sounds like you're truly determined to take the plunge. Good luck! At the least, you'll certainly learn something.

As for table-top games, when you have a good group and a good imagination, no computer game can compare. Of course, the shiny lights and colours of computer games are irresistable.


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 PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:40 pm Post subject: 
 
Water Merchant
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ZippoLag wrote:
.... lack of planning. ...



I'd say objective and thorough testing sessions. Based on my experience as a gamer/modder, free form development based on testing brings about some nice ideas and implementations. Basically, ongoing testing which yields new game play ideas/features. You do one thing, test it thoroughly, then think up something else you could add to it.


Although...perhaps that's not the best idea when you're aiming low.


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 PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:11 am Post subject: 
 
Apprentice
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Last I recall was that Sierra was bought by Vivendi Universal. Unless they're a part of Activision. I recall briefly after Troika went under, they moved the original forum without all the pretty stylings and people hung out there until they decided to just close them. I wonder what happened to that one guy who was the goto guy on gunslinger characters. He was always such a card.

Back on topic, any major corporate can use any form of intimidation on their intellectual rights even if it doesn't have legal precedence.

Microsoft does it regularly even on defunct games they could care less about simply because they hate the idea anyone would be enjoying something they created without paying for it.

Your best bet is to make it a spiritual successor to the game based loosely on it. Otherwise consistently worry about much hard work being put to waste via the big bad wolf and his horde of hungry lawyers.

Not that you couldn't just salvage the code and retool it.

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 PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:01 pm Post subject: 
 
Untrained
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If you don't mind "da new guy's" opinion on avoiding legal issues, rename "Arcanum 2" (for lack of a better description) to "Munacra" (Arcanum spelled backwards) and have it take place on a different continent with new cities, new NPCs, etc. Don't use any names that were used by the IP owners.


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 PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 11:47 pm Post subject: 
 
Never in doubt
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I call my collected ideas and planned engine Obscura. Not that it will be ever finished (or even started).

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 PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:58 am Post subject: 
 
Water Merchant
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Obscura: Of Skrowmaets & Kcigam Munacra


Catchy, don'tcha think?


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 PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:37 pm Post subject: 
 
Nemesis of the Ancients
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RunAwayScientist wrote:
Obscura: Of Skrowmaets & Kcigam Munacra


Catchy, don'tcha think?


RunAwayScientist wrote:
Of Skrowmaets & Kcigam


Catchy, don'tcha think?


RunAwayScientist wrote:
Skrowmaets

Catchy, don'tcha think?


RunAwayScientist wrote:
Skrowmaets

RunAwayScientist wrote:
Catchy, don'tcha think?

Indeed, in fact, I do. Skrowmaets is now going to be added to my archive of last names for game characters.

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Dark Elf wrote:
Racist, sexist, pessimist, chauvinist, misogynist... heck, I'm just ist.

Jungle Japes wrote:
And I say you sound like an idiot, not because you disagree, but because your arguments are stupid.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:50 pm Post subject: 
 
Water Merchant
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...and Munacra is a great name for a halfling.


News from a friend about Arcanum 2:


bert wrote:
bert: http://www.vg247.com/2011/06/13/rumour- ... punk-game/
bert: activision owns bungie
bert: activision holds arcanum license
bert: can you make a guess
bert: man
bert: i am going to rage so hard if its arcanum 2


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 PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:04 pm Post subject: 
 
Nemesis of the Ancients
Nemesis of the Ancients

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If Bungie starts a Halo-engined Arcanum 2, I'll start pooling bitcoins to bribe Lulzsec into nuking their servers. There shall be no abominations.

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Dark Elf wrote:
Racist, sexist, pessimist, chauvinist, misogynist... heck, I'm just ist.

Jungle Japes wrote:
And I say you sound like an idiot, not because you disagree, but because your arguments are stupid.


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 PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:46 am Post subject: 
 
Good Sir Knight
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How does one follow what companies hold what licenses? Is there a database somewhere that lists companies and their licenses?

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 PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:38 am Post subject: 
 
No Hole is Sacred
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If we've learned anything from Duke Nukem Forever, its that some things are best left as memories.

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 PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:23 am Post subject: 
 
Nemesis of the Ancients
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TheDavisChanger wrote:
How does one follow what companies hold what licenses? Is there a database somewhere that lists companies and their licenses?

No. It's a matter of looking at who-bought-who, and assuming that they acquired all the licenses. Fact of the matter is, there's a probable chance, given all the merges and shit that have happened, that nobody has a shit-clue where the legal documentation for Arcanum is.

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Dark Elf wrote:
Racist, sexist, pessimist, chauvinist, misogynist... heck, I'm just ist.

Jungle Japes wrote:
And I say you sound like an idiot, not because you disagree, but because your arguments are stupid.


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 PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:32 am Post subject: 
 
Fucking illogical, captain
Fucking illogical, captain

Joined: Aug 2, 2007
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DarkFool wrote:
No. It's a matter of looking at who-bought-who, and assuming that they acquired all the licenses.

'Whom'... :partyhat:

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 PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:21 pm Post subject: 
 
Good Sir Knight
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Joined: Feb 7, 2009
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Indeed, who-bought-whom.

I suspected it boiled down to following acquisition histories. Thanks, DarkFool!

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 PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:56 pm Post subject: 
 
Nemesis of the Ancients
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Joined: Jan 28, 2005
Posts: 3960
Location: Sittin on my Back Porch, Playin' Poker with Cthulhu
wayne-scales wrote:
DarkFool wrote:
No. It's a matter of looking at who-bought-who, and assuming that they acquired all the licenses.

'Whom'... :partyhat:

Banned.


TheDavisChanger wrote:
I suspected it boiled down to following acquisition histories. Thanks, DarkFool!

This works in 99% of cases, but not all. Say, for example, when Activision acquired whoever it was that owned Troika's IP (Sierra, I think, but am too lazy to look up), an intern at Sierra goes through, and deems a box labeled "Troika" to be rubbish now, since Sierra isn't around anymore. They take that box of documentation, and shred it all. That documentation, it turns out later (as if anyone would notice), just happens to have been all the legal records from Troika, particularly those specifying trademarks, intellectual property, things like that. At that point, nobody -technically- owns Arcanum, or any of the Troika IP. Now, Activision could very definitely make the argument that it's defacto theres (based upon purchases/etc.), and they'd more-or-less be correct. The real difficulty is if they were required to prove it. They couldn't.

Mind you, that's a very long-shot possibility, but it is technically possible. Especially since Troika went through like 4 owners after closing (again, this number is based off very vague recollections, and my currently being too lazy to wikipedia it).

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Dark Elf wrote:
Racist, sexist, pessimist, chauvinist, misogynist... heck, I'm just ist.

Jungle Japes wrote:
And I say you sound like an idiot, not because you disagree, but because your arguments are stupid.


Last edited by DarkFool on Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:01 pm Post subject: 
 
Fucking illogical, captain
Fucking illogical, captain

Joined: Aug 2, 2007
Posts: 1257
Location: Dublin
DarkFool wrote:
wayne-scales wrote:
DarkFool wrote:
No. It's a matter of looking at who-bought-who, and assuming that they acquired all the licenses.

'Whom'... :partyhat:

Banned.

Sentence fragment!

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Xyle wrote:
And she wasn't even the female with whom I have a telepathic relationship.


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