The Crimea

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Jojobobo, Mar 18, 2014.

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  1. Jojobobo

    Jojobobo Well-Known Member

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    So I think there's some cases where a news' story is so big it easily warrants a thread - the current happenings in the Crimea being one such example.

    What's your opinion? Do you believe we're on the eve of destruction? What do you think the appropriate response of the EU and America should be? Do you think the EU was irresponsible in the first place by drafting an association agreement with the Ukraine, in spite of the fact it was pretty likely Russia wasn't going to like it?

    Personally I wouldn't think war is likely with Russia, now or in the future, but the current lack of a serious response by the EU and America sends a message that as long as a country is big and powerful enough we'll roll over - which isn't really what we want to be declaring to the more hostile nations of the world. I know many people have compared it to the Sudetenland and Nazi Germany - I know I'm pressed to pick fault with the comparison.

    Economic sanctions are the only real way to go, but they come at the expense of Europe's and America's economies through lack of good trading partner and for the EU the supply of gas Russia provides so it seems like governments are currently fine sitting on their hands. It would also encourage Russia to form tighter relations with other countries in terms of trading and getting a great deal chummier with them, though I guess it's harder to predict what the knock on effects of that could be.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Jungle Japes

    Jungle Japes Well-Known Member

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    I'm not comfortable with the idea of a resurgent Soviet Union. But I'm also not comfortable with the idea of me or my friends getting shot down and killed in Eastern Europe. And not to discount the importance of the EU in the equation, but I am not confident that the current leadership of the US has the wherewithal or the solidarity to prevent either of those things from happening.

    I think the Nazi comparison is apt. If the rest of the world does little more than frown in their general direction when they annex part of a sovereign nation, what is to stop Russia from grabbing all of Ukraine? Why should they stop short of full restoration of the Soviet Union? And when their aggressive expansion finally ignites a large-scale war, where will the battle lines be drawn? Will it be NATO vs. Russia, or will it be half the world vs the other half?

    I don't know what the right response is, but whatever prevents WWIII, let's do that.
     
  3. Ruda

    Ruda Active Member

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    What's interesting here I think, is that everyone bashes Russia's actions and calls Sunday's vote a mockery of democracy, while not blinking an eye regarding the original coup. Don't misinterpret this as support of Russia. It bloody well isn't. I just find the hypocrisy of pro-west media to be staggering. A coup is a coup; whatever we might think of Yanukovych, he was democratically elected.

    Also worth remembering is that a truce was agreed upon (after both protesters and police had been gunned down) which was immediately broken by the more extreme, far-right elements of the protesters. Again, this is not me falling for Russian propaganda. Of course I realize that we're not dealing with a vast fascist horde that the honorable Putin wants to liberate the Ukrainians from. But we shouldn't forget that these far-right elements do exist and they are now a part of the self-appointed government.

    I read a fairly good Guardian article on this a few days ago. I'll see if I can find it.
     
  4. wobbler

    wobbler Well-Known Member

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    I guess the problem is that Before the problems were internal (besides the fact that most governments are based on a coup; USA, Russia, France, Sweden and so forth) and didn't have a country massing it's forces and debatably invading a country to instate their own puppet government.

    I think that war is not so far away as some people would like to think, and that the current actions of either USA or EU are to weak to really achieve anything.

    EU shouldn't refrain from drafting a possible membership for a Europa Country just because a non-member will disapprove, then you are being controlled and can't function properly.

    What would prevent WW3 would be to just roll over and give Russia what they wanted. But at some point you have to say enough, and it's better to do that sooner than later, whatever the consequences might be.
     
  5. Wolfsbane

    Wolfsbane Well-Known Member

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    I'm no fan of Russia, and especially not a fan of Putin (that fucking snake), but it is a relevant fact in the discussion that most inhabitants in Crimea thought it was a big mistake when they first became part of Ukraine and have longed for this day. It is also important to acknowledge the fact that a major force behind the coup which led to this was the Ukrainan nazi-party Svoboda (let's be honest and name them for what they are - nazis - and stop this "right wing extremist" BS), which should be faced as the threat it actually is by the EU. In no way do I condone the actions of Russia and Putin, I just want to point out the complexity of the situation. It's not as easy as right or wrong right now.
     
  6. Jojobobo

    Jojobobo Well-Known Member

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    I concur, and despite the recent referendum taking place during Russian occupation I think it is most likely a legitimate representation of popular opinion in the Crimea. If Russia wasn't occupying the Crimea, it would be a sound argument for them annexing the region, but as they are and it appears for all intents and purposes like a hostile takeover the world now has to respond to that behaviour.
     
  7. Ruda

    Ruda Active Member

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    Apologies for the poor labeling. Sadly, one have to be so goddamn careful not to step on anyone's toes these days. A refreshing stance. Thank you.

    Found the article by the way. Read it, seriously.
     
  8. ytzk

    ytzk Well-Known Member

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    My understanding is very simplistic, and there's a lot I don't get.

    In terms of realpolitik, here's what I see:
    -Putin is brazen, he can and will ignore diplomatic pressure.
    -Russia has all the boots on the ground it needs to control Crimea and, to top it off, enough Russian nationalists living there to keep it.
    -Crimea has gas/oil pipelines which make it a decent consolation prize for losing Ukraine to the EU/west/nazis/whatever.
    -therefore Russia is there to stay, unless the west uses air strikes which can easily escalate into WWIII.

    In conclusion, I think Putin wins this round.
     
  9. Wolfsbane

    Wolfsbane Well-Known Member

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    It is as you say, ytzk, Russia will most probably keep Crimea.

    On the other hand, because of the hostile takeover (which it was, regardless of Crimean public opinion) it is very important that the EU and NATO now show Russia that any such actions will not be tolerated against a sovereign state. The baltic states are scared shitless since there are large large russian minorities in their countries as well, and I believe a fortified military presence in that and other threatened regions is more than justified to demontrate this stance. Economic sanctions against Russia, Putin included (stop being such pussies, world leaders!), is the way to go. It will backfire on the European and American economies, but I believe it's worth it. Should we engage Russia in combat? Not unless we have to, but we do need to send a message. We need to make a stand.

    I also strongly believe we need to stop mollycoddling the nazis in Europe. We need to call them out, expose them for what they are. Incidents where innocent peaceful demonstrations have been attacked by nazis have been reduced to gang violence time and time again in Swedish media, and this is not acceptable. It is a fact that known nazis (called right wing extremists in the media) have murdered around 14-20 people during the last 20 years in Sweden. The number of murders commited by the so-called left wing extremists in Sweden during that same time is 0. This isn't speculation, the information comes straight from an investigation conducted by SÄPO (Swedish national security police). We need to face the facts and start battling the goddamn nazis that are trying to gain political leverage in all of Europe. Before it's too late.
     
  10. ytzk

    ytzk Well-Known Member

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    If I lived in that area, I would be very scared for myself and my family too. I agree Putin is a snake, and about as dangerous a dictator as ever lived.

    Reminds me of a joke from about 20 years ago...

    What has capitalism done for Russia in five years which communism couldn't achieve in seventy?

    It has made communism look good.
     
  11. Wolfsbane

    Wolfsbane Well-Known Member

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    Re:

    I don't believe in the soul and what not, but seriously, if I did I wouldn't believe he had one. Just look at those eyes man.
     
  12. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    Worst case scenario is that Putin decides to annex the rest of the Ukraine, the Baltic States, Moldavia and Belarus. When this happens, alliances and agreements between nations will come down like a game of dominoes and everything flies to shit.

    So when do we get together to form VaultCo?
     
  13. wobbler

    wobbler Well-Known Member

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    Dont think he will annex more than Ukraina. Ukraina is in no alliance, so the west doesn't have to do anything. But an attack on, say Poland, is an attack on NATO and would pull in basically all European countries and USA. Devilish as he may be, the consequences of a WW3 (it would basically come down to that), well, Russia couldn't handle that at this point.

    Question is when we in the west want to put down the Military boot in the situation.
     
  14. Grossenschwamm

    Grossenschwamm Well-Known Member

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    Re:

    The whole reason he put troops into Ukraine was because they wanted to join the EU, and he knew that after they had joined it would be practically impossible to take them into a new Soviet union the way he's doing it now (which is pretty cut and dry).

    The night before the invasion, US intelligence reported that Russia was not about to put troops in Crimea. I think this either represents an egregious flaw in our network of intelligence, or collusion to distract from something else. Either case is terrifying, but regardless;

    I'm tired of shit like this. And while I'd like a lack of conflicts for a reason similar to Japes (except I only have friends in the military), I do find myself tired of Fox news employees saying how manly Putin is and talking shit about Obama's "mom jeans."
     
  15. Xyle

    Xyle Member

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    Ukraine isn't part of NATO, nor properly aligned with EU...yet. As such, America's response should be limited to the actions that Obama is likely to use (no hawk action). Europe's response should be dependent upon exactly where they want the border between them and Russia to be, because quite frankly, neither will surrender to the other and eventually they will both swallow up all the unaligned territories between them.

    The United Nations is big on self-determination; therefore, as long the Russian-Ukrainians want Russian sovereignty over them (which may be the case or the case may be media manipulation to make it appear that is the case) Russia will have the latitude to acquire the Russian dominated parts of the Ukraine.

    My recommendation would be to demand that Russia pays Ukraine for its newly acquired territory the way that the United States expanded its border by buying most of its insular territory from the Western powers (including payments to Mexico after defeating them and acquiring the Southwest). That payment could be a cancellation of debts that Russia says Europe and the Ukraine own them and perhaps additional benefits to appease them.

    However, if Russia is greedy and attempts to conquer any part of Ukraine that is not willing to be part of Russia, I say that both EU and USA should go to war with Russia, regardless of whether or not it starts World War III. And I am normally in favor of the dove position.

    After the issue is settled with Russia, I would further recommend that we get what remains of the Ukraine as a part of NATO and aligned to the West as soon as possible.
     
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